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  • So I managed to finish off the ECU installation and verify everything was working but could not get the engine started. Assuming that it was an issue with the ECU / wiring, I worked through everything to eventually discover that the problem was a lack of compression. Stumped that I was getting... So I managed to finish off the ECU installation and verify everything was working but could not get the engine started. Assuming that it was an issue with the ECU / wiring, I worked through everything to eventually discover that the problem was a lack of compression. Stumped that I was getting practically a zero reading across all four cylinders I went out and bought another compression tester as it seemed more likely that the tester was busted, but the result was the same. On further inspection I could see that there is a leak between the heads and barrels.

    I need to pull the engine and tear it down to find out what's going on. The only thing that I can think of is that the mill head was out of tram when I decked the cylinder heads, causing the chambers to be out of square. This is the only logical reason why all four barrels should be the same.

    It's also made me wonder how I can prevent this in the future. I'll obviously check the mill for tram before machining the heads, but a leak down test would have also highlighted this before I wasted any time building up the long block and installing it in the car.

    So I'm a little bit disappointed, but it's also a valuable lesson. Apart from getting the engine out of the bus and tearing it down I also need to decide what to do with the motor. If I'm correct on the cause, I will need to re-skim the heads, which will also raise the CR a little, which in turn will mean some more work on the chambers to bring it back down again. I could negate this by installing copper gaskets but 85.5mm copper gaskets seem to be like hens teeth. I guess I could always make some.

    Will see what the verdict is when I pull the engine.
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  • Another productive day working towards getting the bus finished. Got the new rear shocks installed and the throttle cable hooked up. I've installed KYB gas-adjust on the rear as from what I have read this will give a smoother ride. I've got straight oil style Empi lowered shocks for the front as... Another productive day working towards getting the bus finished. Got the new rear shocks installed and the throttle cable hooked up. I've installed KYB gas-adjust on the rear as from what I have read this will give a smoother ride. I've got straight oil style Empi lowered shocks for the front as in my experience gas shocks are simply too bouncy when fitted up front.

    I adjusted the rear ride height and finished bolting the spring plates up. Had to make up an accelerator return spring as the 36hp shroud fouled the cable a little. Ideally it needs a new hole drilled in it to straighten out the throttle cable route so that it doesn't drag on the fan shroud, but that'll just have to wait until later as I just want to get it running. Also adjusted the clutch cable up but could not top up the brake fluid as I seem to have run out Did manage to adjust the rear brakes tho, so that's a bonus at least.

    After setting up the throttle cable I moved on to installing the new front headlights. I bought these an age ago but had never got around to installing them properly. The job was a simple one as I had already made up the brackets, I just needed to weld them into place. I then hooked them up electrically and tested them. I'm pretty pleased with the results.

    The headlight units have an LED halo around the outside of the lens for the sidelight - similar to an Audi / BMW. I also swapped the main halogen lamp for an LED version. A worthwhile swap as the light is noticeably better. They obviously look a little different to normal lights but the light is a lot brighter too.

    With the headlights hooked up I then connected up the oil pressure switch and the oil pressure / temp gauges. This only left the ECU to hook which did not take too long as I had documented everything on a schematic. I tidied up the loom a little with some saddles. This only leaves the tacho to hook up, which I will do later.

    I'm now pretty much at the stage where I'm ready to start the engine and get the tuning underway. But that's a job for tomorrow.
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  • So another day of slowly chipping away at all of those little jobs needed to get the bus back on the road again. I started off by making up a new oil feed pipe to replace the one I crushed with the engine jack. The hardest part was removing the old pipe with the moustache bar in place. It was... So another day of slowly chipping away at all of those little jobs needed to get the bus back on the road again. I started off by making up a new oil feed pipe to replace the one I crushed with the engine jack. The hardest part was removing the old pipe with the moustache bar in place. It was originally installed before the moustache bar went on and whilst the engine was on the engine stand so access was not an issue, trying to do the same thing with the engine in the bus with practically zero clearance underneath was not exactly my idea of fun. Anyhow's, the inevitable happened and I crushed my finger undoing one of the fittings (ouch). No pain, no gain as they say.

    So with the oil hard line replaced I hooked up the flexi lines and decided to add some oil. I had already filled the filter up with oil when I installed it (it takes over a litre of oil alone) and just needed to fill the engine. To help with filling the oil with a supercharger installed I made a useful contraption some years back; basically an old plastic oil container with the bottom cut out and a rope tied through it to hang it from the gutter. On it's outlet is a length of hose that can be run into the filler neck. It's basically like a giant funnel with a hose on it. So I dig it out from the garage and give it a wipe out as it has a bunch of dust and stuff inside, and then hook it up to the engine. I look inside and see something in there, so I wipe it out some more and go get the remainder of the oil.

    For the initial fill I'm using a diesel oil, Diesel oil has a higher proportion of detergents and so will give the engine a good clean out whilst I break in the new rings, otherwise it is the same as petrol based oils. It's also heaps cheaper than running an engine clean additive like Winns or whatever. My dad used to work at Mobil this was one of the handy tips he gave me.

    Anyhow's, I digress, I get the oil and pour some in the 'contraption', but looking inside I see what looks like a slug. Wondering how it got in there I ponder for a second whether the slug would do any damage to the engine, I figure it would get mushed up by the oil pump gears so possibly not, but then consider that it could also get jammed in the oil pickup tube and cause an oil starvation issue and result in catastrophic failure so decide that it's best not to add it to the engine. So I remove the contraption and try to fish the slug out. Well, what I thought was a slug actually turned out to be skink (a small lizard about 4 inches long) Unfortunately he (or she) had met their maker drowning in dieseltec 20/50. So I remove the skink and pour in the remainder of the oil. The oil level is just over the max fill line but I know that once the air has bled out of the cooler it will pretty much be perfect. Funny how you get to know your car after a while (and regular oil changes.)

    So with the oil in I move on to the next job, taking a look at the exhaust...

    I messaged a buddy of mine in WA who also has a similar system fitted and he was kind enough to send me some photos of his install (thanks Humpty), he said he had to shorten his muffler and angle the muffler to gain extra clearance. So armed with a a plan of what I needed to do I set about hacking mine to try and achieve the same

    First job was to disassemble the muffler, this involved cutting around the end cap at the tail pipe end. Once I had cut through the weld I was able to slide the inner and outer parts apart. The muffler is basically a perforated pipe, that is surrounded by kawool (a fireproof 'wool' often used in furnaces). I shortened the inner part and welded it back together.

    The overall length of the muffler needed to be shortened by about 50mm so that it cleared the bottom shock mount so this is what I cut out of both the inner pipework and the outer cover. With everything shortened I reassembled it and welded it back up. *just a note here* I hate welding stainless, not only did I have the wrong gas, but I also do not have the correct equipment to gas purge the pipe which results in a buildup on the inside of the pipe opposite the weld. This means masses of grinding and a non-cosmetic weld. Of course, the bus is no show pony and I don't really care what it looks like, in fact the rattier, the better.

    So with the muffler shortened the next stage was to relocate it to try and create some ground clearance. This basically involved cutting it at the muffler and cutting it at the collector flange and re-welding it back together so that the muffler was mounted at an upwards angle and tucked back in a little more. After tacking it together, offering it up, making some adjustments, re-tacking it together, offering it up, making some adjustments, re-tacking it together, offering it up again it was looking pretty good. So I welded it up. Muffler done! but probably easier to make one from scratch.

    So next I pondered my next steps - fit the rear shocks, adjust the rear spring plates, fit the missing bolts in the rear hubs, adjust the brakes, finish running the loom, hook up the ECU, prime the oil system, fit the front shocks, fit the front ball joints, drop spindles, hub adaptors, mod the front roll bar...

    The list goes on, but whilst pondering I came up with a solution for the front adaptors I had made to convert the late bay drop spindles to wide 5. I had these made from a CAD drawing I was given but never really liked that the centres were a LOT larger than the hubs and so were not supported by the hubs (not good in my books). My brainwave was that I could use shoulder bolts to locate the hubs to the discs and adaptors - basically acting as dowels to ensure that the adaptors are perfectly hub-centric. This is cool for two reasons...

    1. I can use the adaptors I had made up, saving some money
    2. I already have the stuff so don't have to wait.
    3. Yeah-right, like I've got the 'spare' time to just do this - lol

    So, another piece of the puzzle slots into place. I'm kinda thinking at this stage that I'll just get the bus running and driving again and then maybe work through the list of other jobs. A bit like a rolling resto, after all the bus is starting to look a bit tired after sitting under my olive trees for the past 18 months and it could really do with some rust repairs and paint. I figure if I get the mechanical jobs out of the way and then take a look at the bodywork a panel at a time it will eventually get done.
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  •   cheroxgdl reacted to this post about 3 weeks ago
    Made a start on plumbing things in and offered the silencer up to see how much ground clearance I had. (Not much at all.) The front of the silencer fouls the shock mount and it generally sits way too low (50mm), a lot lower than the header (90mm). Looks like I will have to do some more surgery... Made a start on plumbing things in and offered the silencer up to see how much ground clearance I had. (Not much at all.) The front of the silencer fouls the shock mount and it generally sits way too low (50mm), a lot lower than the header (90mm). Looks like I will have to do some more surgery on it to get it to fit better. I still need to dial in the rear ride height as I fitted adjustable spring plates, so might gain a few mm there.

    Also have to make up a new oil feed pipe as I managed to crush the previous one with the engine jack. Bloody ironic really considering that it was a crushed oil hose that was the reason the bus taken off of the road in the first place. D'OH!

    Now that the engine is in it looks like my breather can will not fit so I'll have to make a custom one up. I've got a few ideas on what I want to do there - basically the same as I had before but tailored to the install. My original breather was a modified air cleaner so sat quite nicely in the engine bay. Unfortunately the fuel rails get in the way so I need to either modify it or make a new one. Making a new one is probably easier.

    Still a bunch of stuff to do before I can start commissioning. I even pushed the bus out into the open and cut back the olive trees to get a bit of space to work in.

    My goal is to take it to the next burger night which is only two weeks away. Fingers crossed.
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  • Managed to get the engine in today. Finished up a few small jobs, like extending the loom for the sensors and relocating the oil filter, and then with a little help from my assistants (thanks @MelleMel) transferred the engine from the garage on to the engine jack. I even managed to get the... Managed to get the engine in today. Finished up a few small jobs, like extending the loom for the sensors and relocating the oil filter, and then with a little help from my assistants (thanks @MelleMel) transferred the engine from the garage on to the engine jack. I even managed to get the engine mostly installed in the bus. I just need to finish off bolting it up, which I'll do tomorrow.

    Then comes the fun part of dressing the loom in and cutting a hole in the rear bulkhead. I've already selected the location for the ECU - in the cubby to the side of the rear seat but will need to make up some kind of protective cover for it. Not really a big drama but something that I'll need to do before packing our camping gear back in there.

    Than it's a case of pumbing it in and hooking it up. Not really too much to do there - Oil lines, fuel lines, then fluids, pressure tests for fuel system and fire her up. Not long now.
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  • A bit of a milestone tonight - the engine is finally off of the engine stand. I finished off the last bit of testing (recording the current draw for injector and coil circuits) and removed the exhaust ready for moving the engine out to the bus. Installation is imminent. But before I put the... A bit of a milestone tonight - the engine is finally off of the engine stand. I finished off the last bit of testing (recording the current draw for injector and coil circuits) and removed the exhaust ready for moving the engine out to the bus. Installation is imminent. But before I put the engine in I need to confirm the location for the ECU and fit a bulkhead fitting for the wiring loom which will be heaps easier to do before the engine is in.

    The ECU will be mounted under the rear seat so I need to find an appropriate location to take the loom from under the seat out along the drivers side chassis rail into the engine bay.

    The only other 'major' thing to sort out is a new mount for the oil filter. I need to raise this up as I'm using a sandwich plate to add a couple of sensors. It's a relatively minor job but one that will consume a few hours as I also need to re-route the sensor wiring.
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  • Finally managed to finish the wiring loom off for the bus. This allowed me to get the ECU hooked up and commission everything. I calibrated the wideband sensor, set the TPS limits, added in the three point references for the temperature sensors, tested the crank trigger and the Idle stepper,... Finally managed to finish the wiring loom off for the bus. This allowed me to get the ECU hooked up and commission everything. I calibrated the wideband sensor, set the TPS limits, added in the three point references for the temperature sensors, tested the crank trigger and the Idle stepper, fired the injectors and coil packs and checked that everything was working as it should.

    Now it's just a case of getting the engine back in the bus and seeing if she will start.

    Not long now
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    ‏ — feeling Excited :D
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  •   Mick's 70 Lowlight commented on this post about 1 month ago
    Mick uploaded 21 photos in the album EFI / Blower Stuff
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    • Spend some time today fitting the trigger wheel to my crank pulley and figuring out where and how to mount the VR sensor. I made up a quick bracket toSpend some time today fitting the trigger wheel to my crank pulley and figuring out where and how to mount the VR sensor. I made up a quick bracket to test out the chosen location and it appears to work pretty well. I will make up a better bracket when I've got the plasma back up and running.  More ...
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    • Have now junked Megasquirt in favour of Speeduino based solution using custom ECU designed by me. Features: integrated wideband, idle stepper control,Have now junked Megasquirt in favour of Speeduino based solution using custom ECU designed by me. Features: integrated wideband, idle stepper control, bluetooth and proper molex connector. Also now running a wider PK7 belt, revised high-flow manifold design, ported blower and higher flowing blown application injectors. Just finishing off the loom.  More ...
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  • Mick uploaded 10 photos in the album DIY Tacho
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  • Been slowly chipping away at the bus. Modified the exhaust by relocating the rear hanger that the silencer is suspended from as the original location did not work that great. I simply cut off the old mount and re-welded it in a more suitable location. I also welded in the bung for my O2 sensor,... Been slowly chipping away at the bus. Modified the exhaust by relocating the rear hanger that the silencer is suspended from as the original location did not work that great. I simply cut off the old mount and re-welded it in a more suitable location. I also welded in the bung for my O2 sensor, I'm 95% sure it will not hit the rear valance but will have to wait and see. I also heated up and bent out the moustache bar to create a little clearance for the silencer. It's very close. The silencer is also very close to the engine hanger. 85% sure it'll be okay on that one

    The old engine mounts were pretty badly cracked so I ordered some replacements. I tried looking for uprated / heavy duty mounts but found that there is nothing available for early bay busses. What i did find however, was that the DIY tuning crowd were making up their own uprated mounts using two-part urethane.

    The idea is actually pretty simple. Use urethane to fill in the holes in the mounts, stiffening them up. This actually works quite well on an early bay mount. To do this I cleaned up the mounts (they were covered in paint) created a bit of a dam/mold using some gaffer tape, mixed up the urethane and poured it into the mount. 24 hours later it had completely cured. To I did a bit of a test by compressing both a stock mount and an 'uprated' one in my shop press and found that the uprated one hardly deflected at all.

    Another fairly major step in the project was the manufacture of some ECU adaptor boards. These are for the EFI ECUs that I supply and make manufacture and installation much simpler as they integrate the wideband controller and fuel and ignition relays onboard. The first prototype is now ready to be installed, after I make myself another ECU (they keep getting sold).

    The final step is also underway, the wiring. I've started (and mostly finished) the wiring loom. There's only a few bits of soldering / splicing to finish and then the loom can be wrapped, and that is then pretty much it. Time to get the engine in.


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  •   Harry Ganavas reacted to this post about 2 months ago
    The new overriders and headlights (excuse the finger marks). The headlights have an integrated LED 'halo' around the edge for the sidelights. The headlights themselves use a modern clear lense and prismatic reflectors which help give a brighter light. They look a bit different to the old units... The new overriders and headlights (excuse the finger marks). The headlights have an integrated LED 'halo' around the edge for the sidelights. The headlights themselves use a modern clear lense and prismatic reflectors which help give a brighter light. They look a bit different to the old units but not so much that they stand out. I've also installed LED main bulbs, which come with a cool fan assisted heat sink on the back. For installation tips please refer to the previous post. More
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  • Been meaning to update the build thread for a while. Been making some steady progress on the bus, it's just a case of grabbing half an hour here and there when I can and trying to knock off some of those small jobs. The fuel system is now installed and basically ready for the engine to be hooked... Been meaning to update the build thread for a while. Been making some steady progress on the bus, it's just a case of grabbing half an hour here and there when I can and trying to knock off some of those small jobs. The fuel system is now installed and basically ready for the engine to be hooked up. I've reinstalled the gearbox along with a new shift coupling as well as the driveshaft that I previously rebuilt with new CVs. I've reinstalled the starter motor and removed the old fuel pump and wiring.

    The engine is now assembled with a plethora of small jobs finally sorted out. I've ported the blower, whittled the throttle butterfly shaft, machined the throttle body to accept the air filter, made up some injector adaptors, fabricated some injector hold down clamps, finished off the fuel rails, fitted one of my new crank trigger sensor brackets, made up a new wider blower and crank pulley as well as properly installed the headers and tin-wear. There's a bunch of other stuff that I've probably forgotten too (ahh yeah - like reinstalling the clutch) well, you get the idea.

    So the engine is basically ready to go in, the only thing that is really stopping me is that I want to finish the loom before I install it. Well, I think I do. I'm a bit unsure. I'll decide that when I get to it.

    This weekend I finished off a couple of other small jobs that have been hanging around - Installation of the overriders and the LED headlamps. I still need to tack the headlights in place, but it got a bit too dark to do that this evening, plus I need to hook up the battery to double check the headlamp aim before I finalise their position.

    Conversion of the bus to H4 style headlights meant changing from the early bay all-in-one style of headlight assembly where the headlamp mounting is fixed to the read of the trim ring to a seperate headlight mount and trim ring. The only issue with this approach is that there are no brackets to fit the new headlight mount to. I solved this by making up some small tabs which I bent 90 degrees and held to the mount by the use of some small self tapping screws. With the brackets fixed to the headlight mount it was fairly easy to push it into the headlight bowl, where it held itself in position. Once I have fitted the battery back in the bus I will confirm the aim of the lights and then weld them in position.

    Having already converted the rear lights to LED I now have to change my flasher relay. The standard flasher relay works on a thermal strip and so needs a relatively high load to work. As the LEDs draw practically no power the flasher relay will not work and so needs to be changed for a solid-state (electronic) style of relay. Whilst I'm doing this I can also install the new fuse box mounting bracket as mine is missing.

    Still heaps to do but I feel like its getting closer to actually getting the engine back in the bus. Some of the other jobs can wait until afterwards.
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  • Took a look at the drop spindle conversion yesterday. The idea is to fit late bay drop spindles and then make some adaptors to convert to wide 5. This way I get both drop spindles and discs.

    I previously had some adaptor plates cut from 10mm steel but on fitting noted that the centres are way...
    Took a look at the drop spindle conversion yesterday. The idea is to fit late bay drop spindles and then make some adaptors to convert to wide 5. This way I get both drop spindles and discs.

    I previously had some adaptor plates cut from 10mm steel but on fitting noted that the centres are way bigger then the hubs that I have (the hubs are brand new Empi versions) I'm guessing that the original hubs are a different diameter. At any rate I will need to get some more adaptors made up. This time I will just get some blanks cut and then finish them off myself. The laser cutting was not great, it looks like they had the machine too fast as there was a lot of deflection in the cut. Not great when you need it to be accurate.

    I will machine the new ones in my lathe and then drill the holes using my dividing head - this way I can ensure concentricity and make sure that the plate is a snug fit on the hub - this ensures that the load is transferred to the hub and is not taken up by the wheel studs. The countersunk bolts stop it from looking too much like a bolt on wheel adaptor.
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  • Added some bling. Now I just need to decide if I want to chrome the badge...
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  • Haven't had a chance to do any more work on getting the engine installed but have spent a few dollars treating the bus to some new goodies.

    One of the mods that I have planned for the bus was converting the front to use the new drop spindles available for late bays. The reason for this is to...
    Haven't had a chance to do any more work on getting the engine installed but have spent a few dollars treating the bus to some new goodies.

    One of the mods that I have planned for the bus was converting the front to use the new drop spindles available for late bays. The reason for this is to improve the ride a little as lowering the front solely by beam adjusters has left the bus with a bit of a bouncy ride. The issue with this conversion is that late bays run disks with a different bolt pattern to early bays (which run drums and wide 5.) So to get the wheels to fit you need to make up an adaptor plate to convert the late bay stud pattern to early wide-5 and run the disk brake set up. Unfortunately at this stage they do not do a drum brake version and it is not possible to fit drums to the late drop spindles without a lot of modification which is not something that I want to risk with my brakes.

    I previously made up an adaptor plate (which needs machining) and purchased the drop spindles, and was looking for someone wrecking a late bay to get the rest of the parts that I needed. But after a couple of dead ends and failing at getting some sent from interstate I gave up on that idea. Somehow I recently stumbled across the fact the Rod Penrose stocks all of the necessary parts (new) for this conversion. Rods obviously had the foresight to realise that the hubs, bearings, etc are also needed so he keeps them in stock. So I've taken the plunge and ordered all of the parts required to finish the brake conversion including a new master cylinder and front brake lines.

    This now takes the list of jobs that need doing up to several hundred - lol.

    In addition to the brakes I've also pulled the trigger on a diesel space heater. Not exactly a necessity for the Australian summer but a nice bit of kit to have for those colder evenings and one to take the chill off the bus on a cold morning once I have sorted out a remote starter. I'll obviously post up about the install, as and when that happens. Next hurdle is to figure out where to install a diesel tank.
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  • Finished off machining the flywheel. I've probably taken about a kilo off of the weight. I also 8 doweled the flywheel and crank. As I didn't have a jig, I used my indexing head to drill out the flywheel and then spotted through the flywheel to drill the corresponding holes in the crank.

    As the...
    Finished off machining the flywheel. I've probably taken about a kilo off of the weight. I also 8 doweled the flywheel and crank. As I didn't have a jig, I used my indexing head to drill out the flywheel and then spotted through the flywheel to drill the corresponding holes in the crank.

    As the fan-shroud was dry, I fitted up the ignitor coil drivers and coil packs. You can see where I cut a hole behind the ignitors to allow air from the fan to cool the rear of the ignitor. This should work much better than just relying on a heat sink.
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  • Finally got some time to do a bit of work on the bus. Decided to get the final outstanding little jobs on the engine finished off. Biggest one was putting some paint on the tin. To be completely honest, as time is thin I just gave it a quick rattle can to make it all the same colour. If I had a... Finally got some time to do a bit of work on the bus. Decided to get the final outstanding little jobs on the engine finished off. Biggest one was putting some paint on the tin. To be completely honest, as time is thin I just gave it a quick rattle can to make it all the same colour. If I had a spare couple of days I might have elected to do a better job but at this stage I just want to get the bus back on the road.

    The other jobs were mounting the ignitors for the twin coil packs and putting the IACV and TPS onto the throttle body. With the ignitors I decided to forgo fitting heat sinks and make them air-cooled instead. A 20mm hole and a couple of washers behind them is enough to space them out a little and get some air flow over them.

    The IACV (Idle Air Control Valve) is a stepper based unit which is compatible with most modern ECU's I also have a two wire PWM style IACV that is compatible with Megasquirt units. The TPS is a generic unit that should work with all ECUs.

    The other thing that I started to do but ran out of time with is taking a little weight off of my flywheel. The aim here is to lighten it by a kilo or so. The stock flywheel is about 7.5kg, and the lightened ones available off of the shelf are about 5.5kg (12.5lb). If I can get it somewhere between 6 - 6.5kg I will be happy.

    Next job is to make a jig to 8 dowel the flywheel and crank.
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  • After a fair bit of a wait the components finally arrived for the Speeduino build. Also received the remainder of the parts for the fuel rail setup. On this build I elected for some U type fittings for the fuel rail to put the feed and return hoses on the rear of the fan shroud. Also spent some... After a fair bit of a wait the components finally arrived for the Speeduino build. Also received the remainder of the parts for the fuel rail setup. On this build I elected for some U type fittings for the fuel rail to put the feed and return hoses on the rear of the fan shroud. Also spent some time sorting out the trigger wheel and sensor positioning... More
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  • My Arduino Mega boards have arrived so I spent a bit of time establishing communication and uploading the firmware and baseline tune to the boards. I also connected Tuner Studio to the board. Still waiting for the components for the Speeduino before I can make it up.

    I also finished the hard...
    My Arduino Mega boards have arrived so I spent a bit of time establishing communication and uploading the firmware and baseline tune to the boards. I also connected Tuner Studio to the board. Still waiting for the components for the Speeduino before I can make it up.

    I also finished the hard piping between the engine and the disconnects that I mounted to the moustache bar. There will be a small flexible line that runs between the these lines and similar lines mounted to the chassis that run forwards to the oil cooler and filter. I'm hoping that these will be less vulnerable than the old flexi lines that they have replaced.

    I've also been playing around with some COP solutions and have found one that works pretty well. I've been trying out a variety of different COP's trying to find one that fits the Type 1 setup. I've still got a few more on order and will try them out before I decided on which one I want to use but one works very well as COP and the other works well as a CNP solution.
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